Gang Numbers Cited By Minster of Police
Ben Moore made this Official Information request to New Zealand Police
The request was partially successful.
From: Ben Moore
Dear New Zealand Police,
On Monday, 4th August the Minister of Police cited statistics around gangs, including a number of approximately 4000 total gang members. This number was then used as the denominator for a number of crime statistics. I am interested in the process used to arrive at these figures.
In the first instance my request covers the data provided to the minister to arrive at these figures. If this was raw data, I request that which was provided; if only headline figures were provided, I request the information given, and additionally the raw data used to produce these.
Additionally (or in conjunction depending on what was provided above) I request statistics that Police hold on gang memberships. For instance the total number of individuals flagged for 'Gangs' in the National Intelligence Application. I request this information be broken down to include, where collected, Gang 'Members', 'Prospects', 'Associates' and any other subcategories used for a similar purpose.
Finally, to assist in interpreting these data, I request the Police Instructions which detail the process for identifying and recording gang memberships.
I confirm I am a New Zealand Citizen currently resident in New Zealand.
Kind Regards,
Ben Moore
From: THOMSON, Raewyn
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
I refer to your Official Information Act request of 8 August 2014 for
information about gang numbers cited by the Minister of police.
Pursuant to section 15A of the Official Information Act 1982, I advise you
of the requirement to extend the time limit to respond to your requests.
The period of the extension is until 3 October 2014.
The reason for the extension is that the time required to research and
collate the requested information and for the consultations necessary to
make a decision on the request are such that a proper response cannot
reasonably be made within the original time limit.
You have the right, under section 28(3) of the Official Information Act
1982, to ask the Ombudsman to investigate and review my decision to extend
the time limit for deciding upon your request.
Yours sincerely
Raewyn Thomson
Ministerial Services
Police National Headquarters
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the
addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be
subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which
creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you
are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this
message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this
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From: Ben Moore
Dear Raewyn,
Thankyou for your response to my OIA request dated 18 August.
I am disappointed that you deem an extension appropriate in this instance, and I intend to lodge a complaint with The Ombudsman.
Section 15A(1)(a) of the Official Information Act 1982 allows for an extension where the request is for (or requires a search through) a large quantity of information. This is not the case for my request.
The first part of my request relates to information which has already been provided to the Minister of Police. Presumably this information has already been collated and a search for it should not be necessary?
The second part of my request relates to a small number of totals, which should be able to be queried from a database in a matter of minutes (and presumably already have been in advice to The Minister).
Finally, I have requested Police Instructions which detail the process for identifying and recording
gang memberships. Given the size of the muster of Police Officers, all of whom must presumably be instructed in thss, this should be fairly widely accessible?
You have also pointed to 15A(1)(b) relating to consultations required around the decision to release.
As the majority of my request relates to statistics which have already been made public by The Minister of Police, I have trouble understanding the need for the large delay in response you are advising.
This request comes in the context of a General Election, and relates directly to an election policy. To that end I put it to you that there is a strong public interest in providing the requested information within 20 working days of my request being made.
Finally, and I don't accept that this need be the case: I propose, rather than unduly delaying part of the release, this request be split. The (presumably more straightforward) quantitative data can be provided to me earlier, and the Police Instructions be delayed as necessary.
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
From: MCMAHON, Teresa
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
I have been asked to advise you of the need to further extend the time for
answering your request for information related to gang numbers as cited by
the Minister of Police. Police require until 17 October 2014. The
extension is required to allow for the consultations necessary to make a
decision on the request.
I apologise for the delay in providing this information to you and remind
you of your right to complain to the Ombudsman.
Teresa McMahon
Ministerial Services
Police National Headquarters
PO Box 3017
Wellington
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the
addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be
subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which
creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you
are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this
message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this
message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect
those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in
error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
From: Ben Moore
Dear MCMAHON, Teresa,
I am disappointed to hear that my request is being further delayed. Could you kindly communicate to me the process of consultation you are undertaking, and explain what precisely is so time consuming about it?
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
From: MCMAHON, Teresa
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
I have been advised that your reply is currently going through the final stages of review. This is part of NZ Police's OIA process. Police apologises for the further delay and reminds you that you have the right to complain to the Ombudsman.
Teresa McMahon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Moore [mailto:[OIA #1875 email]]
Sent: Friday, 3 October 2014 16:05
To: MCMAHON, Teresa
Subject: Re: Your request about gang numbers
Dear MCMAHON, Teresa,
I am disappointed to hear that my request is being further delayed. Could you kindly communicate to me the process of consultation you are undertaking, and explain what precisely is so time consuming about it?
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
-----Original Message-----
Dear Mr Moore
I have been asked to advise you of the need to further extend the time for answering your request for information related to gang numbers as cited by the Minister of Police. Police require until 17 October 2014. The extension is required to allow for the consultations necessary to make a decision on the request.
I apologise for the delay in providing this information to you and remind you of your right to complain to the Ombudsman.
Teresa McMahon
Ministerial Services
Police National Headquarters
PO Box 3017
Wellington
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
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Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[OIA #1875 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
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From: Ben Moore
Dear Teresa,
Your last correspondence indicated that I would be receiving my response by the 17th October 2014, it is now the 30th and I have yet to receive anything further. By my count that is 59 business days from the date I first made my request.
Could you kindly provide me with an update as to the status of this request, and a further explanation of the delay.
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
From: MCMAHON, Teresa
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
The response is at its final review stage and should be with you early next week.
On behalf of Police, I regret and apologise for the further delay.
Teresa McMahon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Moore [mailto:[OIA #1875 email]]
Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2014 13:23
To: MCMAHON, Teresa
Subject: RE: Your request about gang numbers
Dear Teresa,
Your last correspondence indicated that I would be receiving my response by the 17th October 2014, it is now the 30th and I have yet to receive anything further. By my count that is 59 business days from the date I first made my request.
Could you kindly provide me with an update as to the status of this request, and a further explanation of the delay.
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
-----Original Message-----
Dear Mr Moore
I have been advised that your reply is currently going through the final stages of review. This is part of NZ Police's OIA process. Police apologises for the further delay and reminds you that you have the right to complain to the Ombudsman.
Teresa McMahon
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[OIA #1875 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an OIA officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
hide quoted sections
From: MCMAHON, Teresa
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
I attach a reply to your information request to NZ Police.
Teresa McMahon
Police National Headquarters
PO Box 3017
Wellington
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the
addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be
subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which
creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you
are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this
message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this
message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect
those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in
error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
From: Ben Moore
Dear MCMAHON, Teresa,
Thank you for your response to my information request dated 04 November 2014.
Unfortunately some of the request appears to have been erroneously denied, and other information given was not what was requested.
My request for the raw data used to produce the information provided to the Minister of Police and Cabinet was denied on privacy grounds. First, for the avoidance of doubt, I request only quantitative raw data, relating to the database query or other method, and results used to arrive at the published figure. Secondly, I direct you to s17(1) of the Official Information Act, which states that:
'Where the information requested is comprised in a document and there is good reason for withholding some of the information contained in that document, the other information in that document may be made available by making a copy of that document available with such deletions or alterations as are necessary.'
To that end, I request quantitative raw data, relating to the database query and results used to arrive at the published figure.
Further, some of the information you have provided is not what was requested. For instance, I requested the total number of individuals flagged for gangs (and sub categories) in the National Intelligence Application, the response I received states the information I was provided with 'comes from Police national and district intelligence units.' While I appreciate your attempt to answer my question by other means, these data are not the same.
You go on to state that 'the National Intelligence Application does not hold collated statistical information on gang membership.' Whether or not the information is collated is irrelevant to my request. Presumably this information exists recorded in a structured database, and presumably the Police have tools to query this information. I see no reason why running such a query would involve 'substantial collation or research.' I would find it astounding that a national police force were unable to quickly and easily interrogate their data in such a way.
I re-state my request for the total number of individuals flagged for 'Gangs' and related subcategories in the National Intelligence Application.
Further and for the avoidance of doubt, I request a yes/no confirmation that The New Zealand Police is capable of querying National Intelligence Application data for statistical insights.
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
From: MCMAHON, Teresa
New Zealand Police
Dear Mr Moore
Thank you for your request which is now being considered under the Official Information Act.
Teresa McMahon
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Moore [mailto:[OIA #1875 email]]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 November 2014 13:17
To: MCMAHON, Teresa
Subject: Re: Reply to an information request
Dear MCMAHON, Teresa,
Thank you for your response to my information request dated 04 November 2014.
Unfortunately some of the request appears to have been erroneously denied, and other information given was not what was requested.
My request for the raw data used to produce the information provided to the Minister of Police and Cabinet was denied on privacy grounds. First, for the avoidance of doubt, I request only quantitative raw data, relating to the database query or other method, and results used to arrive at the published figure. Secondly, I direct you to s17(1) of the Official Information Act, which states that:
'Where the information requested is comprised in a document and there is good reason for withholding some of the information contained in that document, the other information in that document may be made available by making a copy of that document available with such deletions or alterations as are necessary.'
To that end, I request quantitative raw data, relating to the database query and results used to arrive at the published figure.
Further, some of the information you have provided is not what was requested. For instance, I requested the total number of individuals flagged for gangs (and sub categories) in the National Intelligence Application, the response I received states the information I was provided with 'comes from Police national and district intelligence units.' While I appreciate your attempt to answer my question by other means, these data are not the same.
You go on to state that 'the National Intelligence Application does not hold collated statistical information on gang membership.' Whether or not the information is collated is irrelevant to my request. Presumably this information exists recorded in a structured database, and presumably the Police have tools to query this information. I see no reason why running such a query would involve 'substantial collation or research.' I would find it astounding that a national police force were unable to quickly and easily interrogate their data in such a way.
I re-state my request for the total number of individuals flagged for 'Gangs' and related subcategories in the National Intelligence Application.
Further and for the avoidance of doubt, I request a yes/no confirmation that The New Zealand Police is capable of querying National Intelligence Application data for statistical insights.
Yours sincerely,
Ben Moore
-----Original Message-----
Dear Mr Moore
I attach a reply to your information request to NZ Police.
Teresa McMahon
Police National Headquarters
PO Box 3017
Wellington
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[OIA #1875 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an OIA officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
hide quoted sections
From: THOMSON, Raewyn
New Zealand Police
Raewyn Thomson
Ministerial Services
Police National Headquarters
===============================================================
WARNING
The information contained in this email message is intended for the
addressee only and may contain privileged information. It may also be
subject to the provisions of section 50 of the Policing Act 2008, which
creates an offence to have unlawful possession of Police property. If you
are not the intended recipient of this message or have received this
message in error, you must not peruse, use, distribute or copy this
message or any of its contents.
Also note, the views expressed in this message may not necessarily reflect
those of the New Zealand Police. If you have received this message in
error, please email or telephone the sender immediately
From: Ben Moore
Dear Raewyn,
Thank you for your response dated 9th December 2014.
I am disappointed to say the least with the response I have received, in particular the misguided belief that somehow the need to run a query on a database means that the Official Information I have requested does not exist. This seems clearly contrary to both the word and spirit of the law, and is directly at odds with my previous experience of requests to other government agencies.
I refer you to The Ombudsman's guidance, (available at: http://www.ombudsman.parliament.nz/resou...) and in particular its discussion of what constitutes 'official information':
'The Ombudsmen consider that the definition of official information also includes knowledge of a particular fact or state of affairs held by officers in such organisations or Departments in their official capacity. The fact that such information has not yet been reduced to writing does not mean that it does not exist and is not “held” for the purposes of the Act.'
My reading of the above, particularly in conjunction with the overall 'principle of availability' outlined in the Act, would be that the mere fact that you haven't run such a query does not mean that the information I have requested is not held by Police.
This request takes place in the context of the well-publicized inability of Police to provide reliable statistics around this topic, and I would re-state my point that there is a clear public interest in the release of this information.
I have outlined these concerns in a complaint to the Ombudsman, as I am not foolish enough to hope that you will reconsider what is both a relatively minor and constructive request without external prodding.
I am however interested in the answer provided to my question seeking a yes/no confirmation that New Zealand Police is capable of querying National Intelligence Application data for statistical insights. The answer provided stated that your ability to query this depended on the type of information sought. What are the particular criteria that would determine whether or not such a query can be made?
I would be particularly interested in the constraints that prevent you from running a query to simply count the number of individuals identified with gang or gang-related identifiers, as per my earlier request.
Merry Christmas,
Ben Moore
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Joshua Grainger left an annotation ()
Ben has probably already seen this, but for anyone else looking I've OIA'd separately (outside of FYI) the breakdown of the Minister's statistics and got a proper response.
See here: https://imgur.com/liPNZmo
I got a response a because I asked a different, very direct, question. The Police are just being difficult.
Link to this