Title of Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)
Stanley Bannerman made this Official Information request to New Zealand Defence Force
The request was successful.
From: Stanley Bannerman
Dear New Zealand Defence Force,
In some sources the Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment is written with the longer title "Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)". However, following the actions of the Duke of York (Prince Andrew) and his removal as colonel-in-chief of the regiment in 2022, the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” seems inappropriate.
1. What is the correct, official title of this unit? Is the addition of “(The Duke of York's Own)” an informal addition, or is it part of the full title and sometimes just omitted for brevity?
2a. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is part of the official title, since when has this been in use and are there any intentions to remove it?
2b. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is not part of the official title, has it ever been part of the official title and over what period was it in use?
Yours faithfully,
Stanley Bannerman
From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Your request below has been received and a decision on your request will be provided as soon as possible and no later than 3 August 2023. Responses to requests for information that are considered to be in the wider public interest will be published on the New Zealand Defence Force website (www.nzdf.mil.nz).
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force | Te Ope Kātua o Aotearoa
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Stanley Bannerman [mailto:[FOI #23395 email]]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 July 2023 9:13 p.m.
To: Ministerial Services
Subject: Official Information request - Title of Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)
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Dear New Zealand Defence Force,
In some sources the Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment is written with the longer title "Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)". However, following the actions of the Duke of York (Prince Andrew) and his removal as colonel-in-chief of the regiment in 2022, the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” seems inappropriate.
1. What is the correct, official title of this unit? Is the addition of “(The Duke of York's Own)” an informal addition, or is it part of the full title and sometimes just omitted for brevity?
2a. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is part of the official title, since when has this been in use and are there any intentions to remove it?
2b. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is not part of the official title, has it ever been part of the official title and over what period was it in use?
Yours faithfully,
Stanley Bannerman
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From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
Good morning Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached the response to your below enquiry.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Stanley Bannerman [mailto:[FOI #23395 email]]
Sent: Wednesday, 5 July 2023 9:13 p.m.
To: Ministerial Services
Subject: Official Information request - Title of Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)
Dear New Zealand Defence Force,
In some sources the Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment is written with the longer title "Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)". However, following the actions of the Duke of York (Prince Andrew) and his removal as colonel-in-chief of the regiment in 2022, the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” seems inappropriate.
1. What is the correct, official title of this unit? Is the addition of “(The Duke of York's Own)” an informal addition, or is it part of the full title and sometimes just omitted for brevity?
2a. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is part of the official title, since when has this been in use and are there any intentions to remove it?
2b. If the use of “(The Duke of York's Own)” is not part of the official title, has it ever been part of the official title and over what period was it in use?
Yours faithfully,
Stanley Bannerman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
This is an Official Information request made via the FYI website.
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[FOI #23395 email]
Is [NZDF request email] the wrong address for Official Information requests to New Zealand Defence Force? If so, please contact us using this form:
https://fyi.org.nz/change_request/new?bo...
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an Official Information officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA or LGOIMA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or
distribute this message or the information in it.
If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone
the sender immediately.
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From: Stanley Bannerman
Dear Ministerial Services,
Thank you for your reply
In the interim between making the original request and receiving your reply I came across an interesting source, which seems to be at odds with your reply.
The source in question is a master’s thesis entitled “Wagons of War: A History of 10 Transport Company 1951-2011” by Grant Morris (Massey University, 2012, https://mro.massey.ac.nz/bitstream/handl...).
On pages 90-91, Morris claims that:
“Then, in June the following year, Her Majesty the Queen approved the appellation “The Duke of York’s Own” being added to the title of the “Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment”.
Morris bases this statement on a letter between Major General M.F Dodson, Chief of General Staff, to Lieutenant Colonel D.H. Watmuff, Regimental Colonel RNZALR, dated 22 June 1999.
The letter in question was apparently reproduced on page 20 of a pdf document referred to as the “RNZALR History Book”, which at the time (accessed 14 June 2010) was available on the NZDF Intranet at http://org/l-tts/General%20 Docs/RNZALR %20History%20Book.pdf
1. I would like to request a copy of the RNZALR History Book pdf document so that I can check the validity of Morris’ claim as it stands in stark contrast to the NZDF’s position on this matter.
2. Even if the term “The Duke of York’s Own” is only an informal term, does the NZDF have any intentions to discontinue its use, given it currently appears throughout the NZDF website, e.g.
https://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/army/c...
https://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/army/c...
Likewise I note that it appears in in other government departments e.g.
https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/our-programmes/...
Yours sincerely,
Stanley Bannerman
From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
Good morning Stanley Bannerman
Your request below has been received and a decision on your request will be provided as soon as possible and no later than 14 August 2023. Responses to requests for information that are considered to be in the wider public interest will be published on the New Zealand Defence Force website (www.nzdf.mil.nz).
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force | Te Ope Kātua o Aotearoa
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Stanley Bannerman [mailto:[FOI #23395 email]]
Sent: Monday, 17 July 2023 9:06 p.m.
To: Ministerial Services
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED: Response to your Official Information request - Title of Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment (The Duke of York's Own)
Dear Ministerial Services,
Thank you for your reply
In the interim between making the original request and receiving your reply I came across an interesting source, which seems to be at odds with your reply.
The source in question is a master’s thesis entitled “Wagons of War: A History of 10 Transport Company 1951-2011” by Grant Morris (Massey University, 2012, https://mro.massey.ac.nz/bitstream/handl...).
On pages 90-91, Morris claims that:
“Then, in June the following year, Her Majesty the Queen approved the appellation “The Duke of York’s Own” being added to the title of the “Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment”.
Morris bases this statement on a letter between Major General M.F Dodson, Chief of General Staff, to Lieutenant Colonel D.H. Watmuff, Regimental Colonel RNZALR, dated 22 June 1999.
The letter in question was apparently reproduced on page 20 of a pdf document referred to as the “RNZALR History Book”, which at the time (accessed 14 June 2010) was available on the NZDF Intranet at http://org/l-tts/General%20 Docs/RNZALR %20History%20Book.pdf
1. I would like to request a copy of the RNZALR History Book pdf document so that I can check the validity of Morris’ claim as it stands in stark contrast to the NZDF’s position on this matter.
2. Even if the term “The Duke of York’s Own” is only an informal term, does the NZDF have any intentions to discontinue its use, given it currently appears throughout the NZDF website, e.g.
https://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/army/c...
https://www.defencecareers.mil.nz/army/c...
Likewise I note that it appears in in other government departments e.g.
https://www.dpmc.govt.nz/our-programmes/...
Yours sincerely,
Stanley Bannerman
-----Original Message-----
Good morning Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached the response to your below enquiry.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[FOI #23395 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an Official Information officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA or LGOIMA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or
distribute this message or the information in it.
If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone
the sender immediately.
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From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
OIA 2023 4780 response letter.pdf
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OIA 2023 4780 Enclosure.pdf
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Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached the response to your request for information.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
[1]www.nzdf.mil.nz
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended for
the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence
Force. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose,
copy or
distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received
this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/
From: Stanley Bannerman
Dear Corporate and Ministerial Services,
In your reply of 13 July 2023, you stated:
“The correct title of the unit is Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment. Approval has not been sought or given for it to be styled “The Duke of York’s Own”. Reference to “The Duke of York’s Own” is informal and has uncertain origins.”
However, in the document “History of the New Zealand Logistic Regiment”, supplied in your reply of 14 August 2023 a letter is provided from the Chief of General Staff (dated 22 June 1999) stating:
“I am pleased to inform you that The Queen has approved the appellation “Duke of York’s Own” being added to the “Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment””
1. Which one of these statements is correct?
2. Could you please explain how these two statements are consistent with each other?
One would assume that under New Zealand’s constitutional monarchy, approval by the reigning monarch would be the highest level of officialdom.
3. Does the NZDF consider decisions by the New Zealand monarch to be official NZDF/government policy?
The 22 June 1999 letter would seem to suggest that "Duke of York's Own" was indeed officially approved and, in light of no other information of it being rescinded, still is.
4. Does the NZDF have a process to officially define unit titles? What is the process or requirements for a title to be considered official? Does an official process need to take place to change a unit's title? Does the monarch have any role in this process?
My initial request of 5 July 2023 requested a confirmation of the official title of the unit and whether the term “Duke of York’s Own” is, or had been (and over what period) the official title and I would appreciate a reconsideration of this request if your views have changed since 13 July.
Yours sincerely,
Stanley Bannerman
From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Your request below has been received and a decision on your request will be provided as soon as possible and no later than 21 September 2023. Responses to requests for information that are considered to be in the wider public interest will be published on the New Zealand Defence Force website (www.nzdf.mil.nz).
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force | Te Ope Kātua o Aotearoa
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Stanley Bannerman [mailto:[FOI #23395 email]]
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2023 9:54 a.m.
To: Ministerial Services
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED: Response to your request for information OIA-2023-4780
Dear Corporate and Ministerial Services,
In your reply of 13 July 2023, you stated:
“The correct title of the unit is Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment. Approval has not been sought or given for it to be styled “The Duke of York’s Own”. Reference to “The Duke of York’s Own” is informal and has uncertain origins.”
However, in the document “History of the New Zealand Logistic Regiment”, supplied in your reply of 14 August 2023 a letter is provided from the Chief of General Staff (dated 22 June 1999) stating:
“I am pleased to inform you that The Queen has approved the appellation “Duke of York’s Own” being added to the “Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment””
1. Which one of these statements is correct?
2. Could you please explain how these two statements are consistent with each other?
One would assume that under New Zealand’s constitutional monarchy, approval by the reigning monarch would be the highest level of officialdom.
3. Does the NZDF consider decisions by the New Zealand monarch to be official NZDF/government policy?
The 22 June 1999 letter would seem to suggest that "Duke of York's Own" was indeed officially approved and, in light of no other information of it being rescinded, still is.
4. Does the NZDF have a process to officially define unit titles? What is the process or requirements for a title to be considered official? Does an official process need to take place to change a unit's title? Does the monarch have any role in this process?
My initial request of 5 July 2023 requested a confirmation of the official title of the unit and whether the term “Duke of York’s Own” is, or had been (and over what period) the official title and I would appreciate a reconsideration of this request if your views have changed since 13 July.
Yours sincerely,
Stanley Bannerman
-----Original Message-----
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached the response to your request for information.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
[1]www.nzdf.mil.nz
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended for
the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence
Force. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose,
copy or
distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received
this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[FOI #23395 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an Official Information officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA or LGOIMA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or
distribute this message or the information in it.
If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone
the sender immediately.
hide quoted sections
From: Ministerial Services
New Zealand Defence Force
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached a response to your request for information.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
OCDF, Office of Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Ministerial Services
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2023 1:44 p.m.
To: 'Stanley Bannerman' <[FOI #23395 email]>
Subject: RE: UNCLASSIFIED: Response to your request for information OIA-2023-4780
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Your request below has been received and a decision on your request will be provided as soon as possible and no later than 21 September 2023. Responses to requests for information that are considered to be in the wider public interest will be published on the New Zealand Defence Force website (www.nzdf.mil.nz).
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force | Te Ope Kātua o Aotearoa www.nzdf.mil.nz
-----Original Message-----
From: Stanley Bannerman [mailto:[FOI #23395 email]]
Sent: Thursday, 24 August 2023 9:54 a.m.
To: Ministerial Services
Subject: Re: UNCLASSIFIED: Response to your request for information OIA-2023-4780
Dear Corporate and Ministerial Services,
In your reply of 13 July 2023, you stated:
“The correct title of the unit is Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment. Approval has not been sought or given for it to be styled “The Duke of York’s Own”. Reference to “The Duke of York’s Own” is informal and has uncertain origins.”
However, in the document “History of the New Zealand Logistic Regiment”, supplied in your reply of 14 August 2023 a letter is provided from the Chief of General Staff (dated 22 June 1999) stating:
“I am pleased to inform you that The Queen has approved the appellation “Duke of York’s Own” being added to the “Royal New Zealand Army Logistic Regiment””
1. Which one of these statements is correct?
2. Could you please explain how these two statements are consistent with each other?
One would assume that under New Zealand’s constitutional monarchy, approval by the reigning monarch would be the highest level of officialdom.
3. Does the NZDF consider decisions by the New Zealand monarch to be official NZDF/government policy?
The 22 June 1999 letter would seem to suggest that "Duke of York's Own" was indeed officially approved and, in light of no other information of it being rescinded, still is.
4. Does the NZDF have a process to officially define unit titles? What is the process or requirements for a title to be considered official? Does an official process need to take place to change a unit's title? Does the monarch have any role in this process?
My initial request of 5 July 2023 requested a confirmation of the official title of the unit and whether the term “Duke of York’s Own” is, or had been (and over what period) the official title and I would appreciate a reconsideration of this request if your views have changed since 13 July.
Yours sincerely,
Stanley Bannerman
-----Original Message-----
Good afternoon Stanley Bannerman
Please find attached the response to your request for information.
Regards
Corporate and Ministerial Services
Office of the Chief of Defence Force
New Zealand Defence Force
[1]www.nzdf.mil.nz
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or distribute this message or the information in it. If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone the sender immediately.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.nzdf.mil.nz/
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Please use this email address for all replies to this request:
[FOI #23395 email]
Disclaimer: This message and any reply that you make will be published on the internet. Our privacy and copyright policies:
https://fyi.org.nz/help/officers
If you find this service useful as an Official Information officer, please ask your web manager to link to us from your organisation's OIA or LGOIMA page.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in this Internet Email message is intended
for the addressee only and may contain privileged information, but not
necessarily the official views or opinions of the New Zealand Defence Force.
If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy or
distribute this message or the information in it.
If you have received this message in error, please Email or telephone
the sender immediately.
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