MSD knowledge of German Law
Guenter Langenbucher made this Official Information request to Ministry of Social Development
The request was refused by Ministry of Social Development.
From: Guenter Langenbucher
Dear Ministry of Social Development,
1. An offical letter from the German Pension Insurance (DRV) stating that the German old age Pension is not paid or administered by the German Government has been called as not being correct by MSD. Can you please explain why?
2. A second letter from the German Ministry of Work and Social (BMAS) stating that the German old age Pension is not paid or administered by the German Government and referring to the letter of the DRV has blatantly been ignored and not commented on.
Please explain why?
Yours faithfully,
Guenter Langenbucher
From: Info (MSD)
Ministry of Social Development
Dear Mr Langenbucher
Thank you for your email.
Your request has been forwarded to the appropriate officials to respond. You may expect a response to be sent to you as soon as possible.
Regards
Ministerial and Executive Services
show quoted sections
From: OIA_Requests (MSD)
Ministry of Social Development
Tēnā koe Mr Langenbucher,
As per your response dated 2 February 2018, the determination that German
pensions meet the criteria for the application of section 70 of the Social
Security Act was based on information available on the German Government's
website. If you were specifically seeking academic articles which were
researched for the purpose of making this determination, I apologise for
the misunderstanding. The determination that German pensions are subject
to section 70 of the Social Security Act did not require the research of
academic articles. As such, this part of your request is refused under
section 18(e) of the Official Information Act as this information does not
exist.
With regards to your request for a statement of reasons under section 23
of the Official Information Act, the Ministry considers that this was
provided by the response dated 2 February 2018, in which you were advised
that as the German Pension scheme, including pensions paid by the Deutsche
Rentenversicherung (DRV), are paid under social security laws enacted by
the German Government to provide financial support where required, and is
therefore considered under New Zealand law to be paid on behalf of the
German government and, as such, is subject to section 70 of the Social
Security Act.
I am sorry to hear that the link included did not work. The please try the
following links to the search function of the New Zealand Legal
Information Institute, which includes reports of the Social Security
Appeals Authority (SSAA), and to the report of the SSAA in decisions
[2011] NZSSAA 62:
[1]www.nzlii.org/form/search1.html?mask=nz/cases/NZSSAA
[2]www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz/cases/NZSSAA/2011/62.html?query=deutsche
I apologise that the Ministry was not able to identify this report. On
further review, the Ministry has identified the document 'Review of New
Zealand Superannuation - Treatment of Overseas Pensions and Payment
Overseas', dated 24 November 2005, which appears to be the report to which
you refer. This document sets out a number of options for the direct
deduction of overseas pensions. Option five, 'Direct deduction of only
universal flat rate state pensions that are similar to New Zealand
Superannuation' is one of nine options considered. This option is
considered to be administratively difficult, and inequitable in effect, as
this option would specifically advantage recipients of pensions that are
structured differently to New Zealand Superannuation. As per the response
dated 2 February 2018, the German Pension scheme is considered by New
Zealand law to be administered on behalf of the German government.
The Ministry considers that your query regarding whether the Ministry is
aware that German pensions are not paid or administered on behalf of the
German Government has been answered. The German Pension scheme is
considered by New Zealand law to be administered on behalf of the German
Government.
The status of German pensions as a benefit or otherwise is not relevant to
the application of section 70 of the Social Security Act. As per the
response dated 2 February 2018, section 70 of the Social Security Act
requires that the pension being deducted form part of a programme
providing benefits, pension, or periodic allowances for any of the
contingencies for which benefits, pensions, or periodic allowances are
paid under New Zealand income support legislation. The German Pension
scheme is a statutory pension insurance system which provides, through a
system of compulsory savings, a pension for the event of old age, which is
the contingency provided for by New Zealand Superannuation.
Although German pensions operate under different principles to New Zealand
Superannuation, under section 70 of the Social Security Act they are
sufficiently similar in purpose that the Ministry is required to deduct
German pensions from payments of New Zealand Superannuation.
The Ministry considers that your Official Information Act request has been
answered and is now closed. If you are not satisfied with this response,
you have the right to seek an investigation and review by the Ombudsman.
Information about how to make a complaint is available at
[3]www.ombudsman.parliament.nz or 0800 802 602.
If you disagree with a decision the Ministry has made regarding your
Superannuation entitlement, you may apply for a formal review of decision
with the Benefits Review Committee. If you disagree with the decision of
the Benefits Review Committee, you may appeal to the Social Security
Appeal Authority. More information regarding the review process is
available on the Work and Income website here:
[4]https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/about-....
Nā mātou noa, nā
Official and Parliamentary Information team | Ministerial and
Executive Services
Ministry of Social Development
Our Purpose:
We help New Zealanders to help themselves to be safe, strong and
independent
Ko ta mātou he whakamana tangata kia tū haumaru, kia tū kaha, kia tū
motuhake
------------------------------- This email and any attachments may contain
information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you
are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or
duplication of this email and attachments is prohibited. If you have
received this email in error please notify the author immediately and
erase all copies of the email and attachments. The Ministry of Social
Development accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message or
attachments after transmission from the Ministry.
-------------------------------
References
Visible links
1. http://www.nzlii.org/form/search1.html?m...
2. http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz...
3. http://www.ombudsman.parliament.nz/
4. https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/about-...
From: OIA_Requests (MSD)
Ministry of Social Development
Tēnā koe Mr Langenbucher,
As per your response dated 2 February 2018, the determination that German
pensions meet the criteria for the application of section 70 of the Social
Security Act was based on information available on the German Government's
website. If you were specifically seeking academic articles which were
researched for the purpose of making this determination, I apologise for
the misunderstanding. The determination that German pensions are subject
to section 70 of the Social Security Act did not require the research of
academic articles. As such, this part of your request is refused under
section 18(e) of the Official Information Act as this information does not
exist.
With regards to your request for a statement of reasons under section 23
of the Official Information Act, the Ministry considers that this was
provided by the response dated 2 February 2018, in which you were advised
that as the German Pension scheme, including pensions paid by the Deutsche
Rentenversicherung (DRV), are paid under social security laws enacted by
the German Government to provide financial support where required, and is
therefore considered under New Zealand law to be paid on behalf of the
German government and, as such, is subject to section 70 of the Social
Security Act.
I am sorry to hear that the link included did not work. The please try the
following links to the search function of the New Zealand Legal
Information Institute, which includes reports of the Social Security
Appeals Authority (SSAA), and to the report of the SSAA in decisions
[2011] NZSSAA 62:
[1]www.nzlii.org/form/search1.html?mask=nz/cases/NZSSAA
[2]www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz/cases/NZSSAA/2011/62.html?query=deutsche
I apologise that the Ministry was not able to identify this report. On
further review, the Ministry has identified the document 'Review of New
Zealand Superannuation - Treatment of Overseas Pensions and Payment
Overseas', dated 24 November 2005, which appears to be the report to which
you refer. This document sets out a number of options for the direct
deduction of overseas pensions. Option five, 'Direct deduction of only
universal flat rate state pensions that are similar to New Zealand
Superannuation' is one of nine options considered. This option is
considered to be administratively difficult, and inequitable in effect, as
this option would specifically advantage recipients of pensions that are
structured differently to New Zealand Superannuation. As per the response
dated 2 February 2018, the German Pension scheme is considered by New
Zealand law to be administered on behalf of the German government.
The Ministry considers that your query regarding whether the Ministry is
aware that German pensions are not paid or administered on behalf of the
German Government has been answered. The German Pension scheme is
considered by New Zealand law to be administered on behalf of the German
Government.
The status of German pensions as a benefit or otherwise is not relevant to
the application of section 70 of the Social Security Act. As per the
response dated 2 February 2018, section 70 of the Social Security Act
requires that the pension being deducted form part of a programme
providing benefits, pension, or periodic allowances for any of the
contingencies for which benefits, pensions, or periodic allowances are
paid under New Zealand income support legislation. The German Pension
scheme is a statutory pension insurance system which provides, through a
system of compulsory savings, a pension for the event of old age, which is
the contingency provided for by New Zealand Superannuation.
Although German pensions operate under different principles to New Zealand
Superannuation, under section 70 of the Social Security Act they are
sufficiently similar in purpose that the Ministry is required to deduct
German pensions from payments of New Zealand Superannuation.
The Ministry considers that your Official Information Act request has been
answered and is now closed. If you are not satisfied with this response,
you have the right to seek an investigation and review by the Ombudsman.
Information about how to make a complaint is available at
[3]www.ombudsman.parliament.nz or 0800 802 602.
If you disagree with a decision the Ministry has made regarding your
Superannuation entitlement, you may apply for a formal review of decision
with the Benefits Review Committee. If you disagree with the decision of
the Benefits Review Committee, you may appeal to the Social Security
Appeal Authority. More information regarding the review process is
available on the Work and Income website here:
[4]https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/about-....
Nā mātou noa, nā
Official and Parliamentary Information team | Ministerial and
Executive Services
Ministry of Social Development
Our Purpose:
We help New Zealanders to help themselves to be safe, strong and
independent
Ko ta mātou he whakamana tangata kia tū haumaru, kia tū kaha, kia tū
motuhake
------------------------------- This email and any attachments may contain
information that is confidential and subject to legal privilege. If you
are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, distribution or
duplication of this email and attachments is prohibited. If you have
received this email in error please notify the author immediately and
erase all copies of the email and attachments. The Ministry of Social
Development accepts no responsibility for changes made to this message or
attachments after transmission from the Ministry.
-------------------------------
References
Visible links
1. http://www.nzlii.org/form/search1.html?m...
2. http://www.nzlii.org/cgi-bin/sinodisp/nz...
3. http://www.ombudsman.parliament.nz/
4. https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/about-...
Jan McKeogh left an annotation ()
This is a somewhat rudimentary response from MSD.
When the basis for MSD to deduct a German pension is founded on interpreting what is contained in a translated website, this questions credibility regards the rigour of the research.
Even though MSD has indicated it only cares about NZ law, one would expect coordination with Germany's law makers be part of the decision to deduct pensions from there. Only then would there be a complete understanding of the German
pension system.
As it stands now, this understanding and interpretation is seriously flawed.
There are no benefits available to my husband and I within our monthly payments we receive from Germany. Our money is purely made up of our contributions and that of the employer's.
If we were to move back to Germany and receive that portion of NZS we are elible for based on the number of years here in NZ, then yes we would be able to collect social benefits. This entitlement is funded from general taxes paid, not our pension fund.
Portability of NZS is another flaw in the current system.Why cannot the same apply for those who live in NZ?
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Jan McKeogh left an annotation ()
MSD also does not want to understand that to have a pension is mandatory in GY.
They also cannot understand that a pension in GY is paid for by the employer and employee and is therefore a Tier 2 type pension.
Why is this so difficult to follow ?
Link to this